I went to a personality "typing" gathering last night, and the guy who did the typing is determined that I am not, in fact, an INTP, but an ISFJ who thinks he's an INTP, which he says is remarkably not uncommon, particularly among left-handed ISFJs, if I understood correctly.
Granted, I have been quite skeptical of his theories since I met him. He seemed kind of "out there" and all too confident in his theories to be truly open, which always brings someone's theoretical framework into question for me, but I decided to hear what he had to say about his theories. It was interesting, and while the reasoning behind his particular model of interconnectedness between the various traits did escape me somewhat, I was considering the possibility that he really was on to something, reserving that judgement, of course, until I could see the full rationale behind his model. Nonetheless, I already knew he believed me to be other than an INTP, and I shrugged and thought, "If I don't fit his mold, I don't fit his mold."
Yet despite my shrugging, to be told that I now could not be counted as an "N", a group which made so much sense to me when I finally discovered it in Please Understand Me II, and which made sense of so much of my childhood and my relationships...to be told I was, in short, an imposter, was uncomfortable even if I disagreed with his reasoning. It kind of hurt to wonder if other Ns had always regarded me as this sort of "passable" figure, not quite right but close enough to keep around. I've always been a loner in most ways, so sometimes I'm surprised when lack of belonging (something a typical "N" doesn't care much about, nor do I in most cases) hurts for such a silly reason as being told I don't belong to the iNtuitors as I thought I did by someone whose personal opinion doesn't matter to me but which represents the possibility that others think the same way.
Listening to him felt a little like listening to the psychic in a booth who tells you danger is just around the corner and to be careful to avoid it. They're so sure of themselves that you feel a slight foreboding, even though you're not convinced they're right. He seems, at least, to have more of a basis for his assertions than a sideshow performer peering into a glass ball...
I set that aside the best I could and tried to figure out why else I might feel shaken. Was it because he was right, and I was getting a much-needed slap in the face by some guy I didn't trust? Was it because something about what he said struck a nerve, such as tapping into my insecurity about being unoriginal? My mind was reeling, considering his points and formulating the counterarguments, but I kept them to myself and told myself that if I really was open-minded, I'd consider his propositions more carefully before attempting to pick them apart with my relatively limited knowledge around personality typing and complete lack of knowledge around phenotypology.
If he's right, I have some reassessment to do. I have to try to ignore the fact that all descriptions of INTPs and INTJs fit me remarkably well and that the ISFJ description he gave, along with the Keirsey version, only fit in some aspects. I have to acknowledge that he may be correct in asserting that I only THINK they fit me well because I see myself inaccurately and have maintained a very effective INTP facade long enough that I've fooled people around me into thinking I am one as well, when in fact, I am an ISFJ with certain "N"-ish traits due to the brain phenomena which are indicated by my lefthandedness (something which apparently stems from some seemingly deterministic ideas about genetic expression, phenotypology, what-have-you). It's all very interconnected in his theory and potentially convoluted, but it's possible he's right, and some of my own sense of conflict could be explained the way he explained it. I have to concede that. I think it could be explained other ways, too, but this was, I admitted, a viable option. He told me he would bet his life on me being an ISFJ and that he has run into others who are ISFJs who have been convinced they are Ns, and they are always stubbornly opposed to his insistence that they are Ss.
I fought the urge to incessantly argue his points for various reasons, including: a) I don't really care about proving what "type" I am to anyone, b) I am fairly certain he believes me to be less intelligent than I am, again something I also don't care about proving to him, c) I came to hear his views, not to combat them, especially in confirmation of his prior experience, d) if I am going to be as "open" as I would like to think I am, I have to acknowledge the possibility that he's right even if I don't believe he is, e) I didn't want to go into the ultra-debate mode I've worked so hard to rein in over the years, f) ...OK, there are others, but I'll leave it at that.
However, he all-too-quickly had made an assessment of my personality soon after meeting me (this is his specialty, so that's what he does with people--phenotyping), and he seems to have based most of his opinion on my interactions with him and on my style of clothing, my "metrosexual" look, which he insists an INTP would NOT exhibit because true INTPs never have in his experience, and the way my eyes focus...or don't.
What I would have gone into, had I cared enough to draw out the debate, and had I been convinced a debate would go anywhere (he said he would slit his wrists if he were wrong...how are you supposed to expect to get anywhere with someone like that?), was how much, in my life, I've deliberately worked to balance my own way of viewing things or doing things. And over the years since adolescence, I've actually felt a shift towards "S"ness, but it's never felt natural, and the "N" descriptions I read about feel like "home". Almost everything he brought up as a sign of my lack of true "N"ness was something I had tempered over the years through a lot of effort. I can't prove to him what has been done through effort and what has been my natural tendency. So... *shrug*
If he's wrong, I wonder if he has reorganized the interplay between the Jung-based letters so much that his methods of typing have unfortunately sacrificed some important nuances of, for example, what it means to be an introverted "NT" with extroverted Sensing. Or perhaps some of the factors he has brought in (left- or righthandedness, inhibited vs. uninhibited, etc) tend to confound, not clarify, the model? Meh, but he could be right. The J I'll concede. I show both P and J tendencies and always have in different ways. When I was very little, I suspect I was a hardcore J. In early adolescence, I swung to a fairly extreme P. I've come back to more of a compromise, I think. Though maybe it's really just a stress-inducing conflict. Who knows?
The T and the F, also potentially disputable, though I think I'm more of a T. In fact, I went back and read Keirsey's description of the ISFJ and the ISTJ, and the ISTJ seemed to describe me a little more than the ISFJ. Of course, neither fit as well, in my opinion, as the INTP and INTJ. Even the NF variants describe me at least as much as the ISFJ. Of course, again, his theory conveniently explains this with the simple assertion: I do not know myself like I think I do.
...so now it's the next morning, and I just retook the Keirsey adaptation thinking, "OK, let's be open to getting a lot of 'a' answers to explore this. And let's think of what has been most consistent during my adult life and leave childhood out of it." Where I was torn between 'a' and 'b', I wrote both, and for scoring, I always chose a. The result? ISTJ. Interesting.
'I' won 10 to 0.
'S' won 11 to 9. Had I scored 'b' instead of 'a' on each ambiguous answer, 'N' would have won 14 to 6.
'T' won 13 to 7. Had I scored 'b' instead of 'a', 'T' would still have won 11 to 9.
'J' won 13 to 7. Had I scored 'b', 'P' would have won 11 to 9.
OK, so Mr. "You're an ISFJ" may just point to errors in my own self-perception to explain the ambiguity, or maybe even flaws in the assessment method of Keirsey.
But here's the deal, this was with me telling myself that if in doubt, choose 'a'. But the fact of the matter is that it often felt forced to lean towards the 'a' answer.
Nevertheless, if I am, according to his model, an "S", it could "help" me see my own strengths and weaknesses more accurately if he's right. It could help me understand interpersonal relationships and begin to recognize my own motivations and innate abilities more accurately, which can be very useful, especially when trying to determine a career path and feeling befuddled. So I won't discount it entirely.
But I'll just say it: I think he's wrong. Confusion on his part would be understandable, considering the complexity of his model, his lack of experience with me, my non-extreme "N"ness, and the phenotypology to which he's so loyal. But I'm not the expert. And unlike my "E" friend, about whom this fellow changed his mind (something he admitted he rarely does), I am not as interested in convincing this guy he has misread me or I should be allowed to stay in the club. Maybe I am a sort of hybrid. I've always thought it would be weird or awkward to be on the border between an "S" and an "N". Maybe I'm experiencing it. If I eventually decide that I think he's right, I'll keep y'all posted. I'm sure you're on the edge of your seat...
11 comments:
OK, so an interesting table caught my attention.
A forum I Googled (I know, not the most reliable) talks about right- vs. left-brained people and shows a breakdown. I fit mostly on the left on the upper part, mostly on the right on the lower. This actually is what showed me why he thinks it's so obvious that I'm actually a concrete person or "S" with right-brained tendencies. Left-handedness is associated with being right-brained, and therefore that would account for my "N" tendencies, even though I'm really hardwired, according to his phenotypology, to be an S.
I still disagree with his explanation, which just seems overly simplistic, judging from my own internal experience.
I agree with a lot of the issues you have with his theory (and he himself). The phenotypology actually kind of gets me in a twist for numerous academic reasons, most certainly for its ontological determinism among other things.
I know that first night I was typed I felt like I'd been diagnosed with faux-personality disorder. He called what I had been living my "alter-ego" and I was horribly shaken. Who was this stranger and how does he think he can categorize me as what I felt was the equivalent of a dumb blonde?
Anyway, too much to say for a blog comment. It's kind of exhausting stuff to work through. At this point I'm tempted to run and hide from the battling Js.
Ha, I'm relentless at trying to resolve puzzles I care about, but that doesn't mean I'm going to combat someone to find those resolutions. I learned to rein in combative tendencies as needed years ago. :-)
I can say this: if he can convince me that Keirsey's INTP or INTJ are actually his ISTP or ISTJ, then I may find that more probable. But it just doesn't fit with me under everyone else's descriptions, nor his as I understood it.
I understand he's looking for a specific kind of information processing (synthetic vs. reductionist, if I remember right), and he's looking for a certain kind of creativity. What if I have let myself be taught that reductionist or analytical defense is required to convince most audiences and have focused excessively on learning to express it while ignoring the style of reasoning I'd be most naturally adept at...? Ha, I mean, to play along with his game, anyway. And what if he is overlooking the creativity of theories and ideas but not in any tangible representation? INTJs and INTPs are, after all, abstract to an extreme, so though my sensible side may show through obviously (because it's concrete), the deeply theoretical inner workings of my brain don't usually come to the surface in any obvious way. Disinterest in improv is, in my opinion, a silly hinge for typing an "N", especially a 100% introverted N.
According to that chart I referenced, at least one person theorizes that a right-brained INTP would exhibit extroverted sensing, which might, if I understand that correctly, account for why he felt I was not defending myself in an "N" way, seemingly confirming his point. But I don't know if I understand the subtleties of that well enough to make that assertion, so I keep it to myself except in my blog comment where I have time to say I might just be a dumdum, and I can more easily retain my dignity by controlling the dialog that follows. ;-)
Anyway, I recognize the possibility that I am a naturally concrete thinker with abstraction tendencies but who ended up sticking more with the "S" traits not because they were learned but because they were ultimately the most innate, and that I felt like a black sheep in my family not because I wasn't an "S" like them but because I was an "S" with a penchant for the abstract due to being right-brained. I get that. But...it doesn't seem quite right when I really think about my past and the whole spectrum of my life.
But hey, maybe when he and I meet again, he'll have an explanation for that, and I'll actually be able to stomach listening to it.
Hmm, yeah. Ultimately I don't think any kind of "typing" or categorizing is adequate to describe the depth of a human being with complex history, environment, social structures, etc. Being someone who is going into the social sciences (not psychology) I tend to think that such categorizations don't take into enough consideration the mysteries and complexities of the nature/nurture dichotomy.
Anyway, I am from an "S" family too, only my family is pure "F". I'm incredibly sensitive, and I beefed up my personality to a tougher TJ to combat my FJ mother.
I really see myself as an ISNFP now.
The Jungian preference ordering for an ISFP seems quite accurate for me. I like the idea of presenting each of them as existing but being expressed differently. For me, it is
Introverted Feeling
Extraverted Sensing
Introverted Intuition
Extraverted Thinking
Sometimes I wish I were just a plain old S - maybe everything wouldn't be so confusing. But hey, makes life interesting right? I have pretty much embraced that sensuality/earthiness while still maintaining my ability to think and understand quite abstract concepts. I've never really tried to create abstract things...but I think that has something to do with my incredibly concrete family.
Ultimately I think that contrary to how most people discuss these types, none of the preferences are mutually exclusive.
In my experience reading your blog, (which I recognize isn't a whole lot) I see S and F all over the place. But then again, I'm biased and I think it's a great thing. But yeah. You should come to another night, the first one is always the worst. Plus you need to ask questions! I felt much better after I'd asked him a few burning questions (I completely disagreed with his answers, but it was good to know. I would never challenge him in an informal setting. Perhaps in an academic one, though.)
Ha, well I can see what you're describing for yourself. It still doesn't seem to apply to me. I never felt really "torn" between S and N. When I read about Ns, there was just no doubt. It all fit. S seemed foreign to me for the most part. But hey, I could just disdain parts of myself that the S describes for some reason. *shrug*
As for my blog, I figured someone would mention seeing S and F all over. My abstract thoughts and exploratory stuff mostly stays in my private journal. I've tried to write about stuff I think my "S" family and friends (the ones who mostly read my blog) would most be interested in or find digestible. And my ideational obsessions stay locked into my brain until I have some palatable way to express them and make them applicable to life in some way.
I also have friends who have told me they really wanted me to write more about my feelings because they liked seeing the "human" side of me more. That has prompted me to try to become more expressive about the emotional side of my life in writing, which in turn has helped me be a little more emotionally open in person. Like I explain in "Little INTJ", I've done a lot of things in life just to prove to myself I could do them. That's no exception.
And you cannot convince me a "T" wouldn't feel as much as I do, unless maybe you're talking about a 100% "T", which may exist, but oh the pathology of that... ;-)
It's too bad you don't feel like your S friends could palette your N -ness. Don't suppress it! Screw everyone else, you should share those wacky N thoughts of yours.
When you tweak your output so much it makes it impossible for me to assert anything doesn't it? You won't lose an argument with this P anyway. All I know is you're very capable of expressing your emotions quite eloquently and beautifully. I don't know a lot of T's that are capable of so freely doing so. I know I'm not, and I'm not even a T. Or am I? Maybe I'll never know. *shrug*
Ha, I don't think I feel "forced" to portray myself any particular way. It's just what I've done. When I've posted my more abstract stuff, I've gotten a lot of, "Huh?" :-)
So I laugh, shrug, and make it more concrete or practical the next time. Because if I'm going to truly convey an idea I care about, I want to try to make it clearly digestible or palatable to the widest audience possible, which I think a lot of Ns don't do, and I practice that here a lot to see who grabs onto things and who doesn't, not just in a concrete vs. abstract way but themes, etc. This blog is, in part, a testing ground for styles of writing and expression, even though it's a very small audience. Sometimes I get tired of the effort and just write. And those are often my least-commented-on posts. ;-)
But one thing talking with Mr. "You're an ISFJ" has done is to help me remember not to spend so much time in the "can I?" efforts that I lose touch with my natural inclinations and ways of thinking, whether those are "S"ish or "N"ish. :-)
If I'm completely honest, I must admit I've doubted that you were, at the very least, a *strong* INTP.
I've always doubted that you're a 'P,' and a recent discussion between you and me on another blog made me more seriously question that you are truly an 'NT.'
That being said, I can definitely see how you could be borderline with the S/N and T/F traits, switching between the two when it best aids the situation/other person -- which could, therefore, suggest a mostly ISFJ core from what I've read about said personality trait...
... in fact... I actually think I agree with this bloke's ISFJ casting, the more I think about you and our interactions one with another.
If I ever do meet him, I'll be quite curious to see if he thinks I'm anything but an INTP -- every test I've taken defines me as a strong INTP (for example, this test -- which I like because you can answer "I'm really in between" -- suggests that I'm 75% I, 82% N, 80% T, and 95% P... not very close to being borderline in any area).
Ha, well the "S" part feels like work. The "N" part feels more natural. But whatever. I think I've stopped caring what someone else thinks I am or whether certain theorists are sure I have a core ISFJ. It doesn't fit with my driving motives. I've come to a satisfactory intellectual resolution myself for now, which has resolved the unrest. For now, at least. :-)
Y'all need to stop labeling your parents. People behave differently as parents (setting an example, being a role model, teaching good values, etc.) than they do as, well, non-parents. You'd be amazed if you could get to know them as friends instead of parents.
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